Environmental Sensors for Clean Air with Ronan Cooney: The Tech Between Us, Season 3, Episode 8, Part 1

Transcript

Raymond Yin
When you say, “air pollution”, the first things that may come to mind include carbon monoxide, lead, particulates, and factory or industry waste - the stuff we breathe outside. But the air we breathe inside is often much more important. Indoor air quality can be two to five times as polluted as outdoor air, thanks to dangers like smoke - thinking of my chain-smoking grandmother; mold, cleaning chemicals, various particulates, and as we learn the hard way from COVID, airborne illness. Factor in the estimates from the US Environmental Protect Agency, that Americans spend an average of 90% of their time indoors, and it’s safe to say the air inside our homes, schools, factories, and businesses, is worth a closer look.

With me today is Ronan Cooney, head of product at Ambisense. Hi Ronan, welcome to The Tech Between Us.

Ronan Cooney
Hi, Raymond. Thanks for having me.

Raymond Yin
To start us off, please, can you tell us a little bit about what Ambisense does?

Ronan Cooney
Yeah, sure. So Ambisense is an environmental analytics company based in, in Dublin, in Ireland. So we develop our own indoor air quality monitoring devices. And we use that, with other data sources, such as weather data, maybe occupancy data, and other datas being gathered within buildings and try and go more beyond the raw data. So trying to you know give more around ventilation performance, thermal performance, drivers of things like condensation, damp and mold, air change rates, and things like that. So using sort of machine learning and, and analytical tools to give customers a deeper dive into environments that they occupy.

Raymond Yin
So air quality is just a component of what you guys take into consideration when you're looking at overall, how are we doing there?

Ronan Cooney
Yeah, exactly. There's so many drivers to the environments that people occupy. So energy obviously becomes a, a big part of that as well. So we do use different third party devices, for example, as well, to gather some other data that might be contextual. So again, it's all into budgets of customers and what they really want to do and how far they want to go with it. But we're all about, you know, IoT devices in general and trying to give, like I said, that best rounded picture of the environments.

Raymond Yin
So when most people think about air quality, it seems like outdoor air quality is more top of mind. Is the concept of indoor air quality, like offices and homes and warehouses, is that a new concept? How long has that been around?

Ronan Cooney
I think it’s always been around Raymond. At a most basic level, really, temperature and humidity are the most basic. So, everyone has been in those buildings where you’re sitting in a drafty spot or you’re getting chills, or you’re too hot and you’re sitting beside a window and the sun’s beating in and you’re sweating at your desk. So I think it’s always been there to a degree, but I think with things like COVID, it’s just increased more so, and the real focus on it now and things like carbon dioxide, so CO2 coming into the mix, and I think people are a bit more aware of what that means and the impacts around that. And then you're getting into things like particulate matter and VOCs. So volatile organic compounds and their impact if you're trying to go deeper. So I think it's yes and no. It's always been there, but yeah, there's definitely much more of a focus on it. I think the last few years driven by COVID.

Raymond Yin
I completely agree. And I think that's where we heard a lot of it is in all the reporting on COVID and the distancing and so on and so forth. I read a really interesting statistic as I was preparing for this. The US EPA, Environmental Protection Agency, had a report out that said indoor air quality can be two to five times as bad as outdoor air quality. I mean, that blew me away.

Ronan Cooney
It's a scary fact, I suppose when you see it. But if you logically think about it, if you've got the outdoor area and the space that you're in and the toxins and stuff that are there disperse over such a big area, if you pull all that into a building, close it off with very poor ventilation, all you're doing is really condensing it. So it's around design, I suppose. If you have the wrong filters in place, you don't have enough ventilation and people are generating these things themselves. Obviously, you know, CO2 and we're breathing out. So, if you go into a space and just the temperature of having bodies in a room is increasing, CO2 is increasing, we're moving around, particulates are probably increasing, then you're pulling in, you know, again, in a very polluted city, potentially pulling in outdoor pollutants into that space. It can be a bit of a scary place to be in, I suppose. And I think that's the trouble, I suppose, has always been that people can't see it, so they don't know that it's bad.

Raymond Yin
And that brings up an interesting point. Luckily, you know, a lot of workplaces at least have banned smoking in the workplace. My grandmother used to chain smoke in her house, and so I'm sure that was a, you know, considerable contributor to her poor air quality. What other types of things can contribute? You mentioned, particulates and people moving around. Things like, mold and whatnot, are those significant contributors to poor air quality, or is it primarily bringing air in from outside?

Ronan Cooney
It's all factors. If you've very polluted outdoor air quality and you're pulling that into a building through a mechanical ventilation system or just naturally ventilated, you know, naturally ventilated, there's no filters involved. So it's going to be bad. If you've the wrong filters in place and you're pulling in air quality from outside and all those little particulates are getting through the system and they're not being filtered out, that's not going to be good either. But temperature and humidity and CO2 is being generated by people so they're the first sort of thing, but then you're getting into, like carpeting in a building, as people move through it, it can kick up dust in particulates.

Raymond Yin
Got it. Okay.

Ronan Cooney
Carpet itself, what it's made of can generate VOCs, and then you get into like cleaning products. How are the different surfaces being cleaned? And it can generate different VOCs as well. So, there's a huge range of things that you need to be aware of within the building and consider all those combined to really have an idea. And I think that's obviously where we need to come in is to provide the data to show people that, because again, you can't see it. You don't know how good or bad it is in a space. And a lot of it can come back to even the design of the building. So that the design versus the real time performance of a building can be chalk and cheese, you know, very, very different, depending on the way the space is being used.

Raymond Yin
Right. And, it sounds like a more crowded space, like here at Mouser we've got a series of cubicles. Something like that would probably have potentially poorer air quality than maybe like an open environment or something that is more sparsely populated.

Ronan Cooney
Yeah, it can, when you're putting in, I guess, the divides and things that you're going against, in a lot of cases, the design of the building. So an architect would've gone in and said, well, the air is going to flow from A to B, and then you put a barrier in the middle of that and you've disrupted that airflow potentially in it, or you put in new walls that weren't there originally, in the original design. So all that airflow can be disrupted. And again, if you're not monitoring it, you don't know what that impact is anymore, and how's it really performing. So really important to monitor it.

Raymond Yin
Okay. Yeah. The things that may not be considered when they're trying to fit X number of people into X square footage.

Ronan Cooney
Exactly, yeah, It's big consideration. And especially these days, it's hard to know what people coming, you know, work from home more and maybe in their office some days, and do they tend to gravitate towards certain areas than others are? How well are they spread out? So, all those things are kind of a big factor.

Raymond Yin
If somebody, faints and falls over, okay, that's a pretty obvious sign of potential poor air quality. But what other sort of health issues can be caused by poor air quality.

Ronan Cooney
Yeah. So down to the basics, I suppose, again, with temperature, it's just general discomfort. So, people just don't like being in a certain spot and they're too hot or too cold, stuff like that. Then you're getting into humidity levels and mold, say very high humidity potentially in a space. And that mold, obviously breathing it in long term. It's all these, long term being in these spaces and environments, you know, considerable amount, I think we spend over 90% of our time indoors these days. So, these environments  are going to have a big impact on us long term. So, you got your CO2 as well, then productivity just goes out the window. We've all been in those meetings where you've 10 people for two hours talking about something, and everyone starts slumping over and falling asleep and things like that. And that's the CO2. There's not enough ventilation in that space. And we've seen it so often at boardroom levels. So you've got the biggest, top level executives in the company in this room, they're not thinking clearly, cause the CO2 is so high in there, maybe the ventilation is so poor and they're making big decisions, big costs, for the company and everything like that. Those rooms should really have the best that they can get to make sure that they are clear of thought when they're making the big decisions.

Raymond Yin
I used to blame jet lag for me dozing off in meetings, now it's going to be poor air and indoor air quality.

Ronan Cooney
But that's a good example though. You know, an airplane is probably the ultimate scenario where you're going on even a one- or two-hour flight and everyone's asleep nearly. Cause it's hard to ventilate a plane sufficiently.

Raymond Yin
That was a scenario that I never even considered. In a lot of these meetings, we're at capacity even the bigger meeting rooms, I never thought about that. We are breathing, you're increasing the CO2 content and the ventilation may not be optimal.

Ronan Cooney
That's it. And the step one again, is the data. You need the information to show you how good or bad it is. Again, there's no point spending a huge amount of money putting in a new ventilation system, and doing all this work when you don't know what the cost is. And, the monitors are so cheap, really these days to moderate the indoor air quality. There's no real reason for people not to do that as a first step. Data and then put a plan in place about rolling it out. It doesn't have to be immediate. Again, we're looking at long-term effects. So, unless it's at dangerously high levels, it's something that you can budget for over an extended period of time.

Raymond Yin
So obviously you guys have worked all over the world, all over Europe. What sort of governmental regulations do you guys have to meet when you're installing a new system? Or are there any? Are there any regulations?

Ronan Cooney
So, in Ireland, we're actually quite progressive at the minute. The health and safety authority in Ireland have just actually released this year, new regulations around the quality of air in the workplace. So very focused on the workplace. And there's a risk assessment that companies need to run. I'd say probably a lot of companies in Ireland maybe don't even realize this at the moment. It's so new, but there are regulations there now that every year they'll need to submit some sort of risk assessment that the ventilation has been at least looked at. And the same in the UK. The health and safety executive over there, the HSE, have regulations relating to workplace health and safety. And they have gone a bit further. So, they're looking at five to eight leaders per person in a space, and that should be supplied at all times. So, we get into Europe, mainland Europe, it's a bit more into guidelines and practices. So, it's more an advisory, but I think the regulations are coming and everything that we've seen over the last few years is going to probably tighten up more and more. And as people understand these spaces and what's achievable, because again, I think the government, is always reluctant to bring in regulations when 90% of buildings mightn't achieve that standard and be a panic. Since COVID, they've seen the data now. They know what's going on. They go, okay, we need to set goals, and get people to push on to try and achieve those things. And that's what they're doing. So it's great to see, and I think it's about time that it's being brought in. Hopefully those regulations just continue.

Raymond Yin
Yeah, same with the US. I mean, there are recommendations, there are guidelines from different organizations, from different governmental entities, but there are no true regulations saying that you must meet this, in this sort of environment, in this sort of building.  To your point, I think having that data, hopefully will drive them to a better understanding of what the air quality is inside an office or inside of a warehouse or whatever it may be. And then maybe from there regulations may result.

Ronan Cooney
Yeah. And I think it's the confidence as well in the technology like IoT devices still are … in a lot of people's minds at least, relatively new and the accuracy that they have, and then the cost of obviously implementing some of these systems gets a lot of people nervous, and as a boss you see, “oh, it's another cost” to your business. But they have to really look at the benefits. And I think that's it. Like the benefits of introducing these things far outweigh the cost of implementing it. If you have a serious absenteeism problem because people are constantly sick because they're coming into the office and there is some issue there around maybe VOCs or something that's driving long-term health issues and litigation comes down the line from that and that's the biggest fear of any company. That somebody comes and sues them for huge amounts of money down the line because there's no real excuse anymore that “I didn't have the data”, “I didn't know that this was an issue.” It's out there now. So as an employer, it's up to you to go and implement these things.

Raymond Yin
Yeah. And, to your point earlier, I think COVID has really heightened the awareness of companies on the workplace and safety and health in the workplace to where hopefully these things become top of mind and they're able to use data to be able to make a change in whether it's ventilation or something within the workplace.

Ronan Cooney
Yeah. It's never really had the coverage, I suppose, at national TV level. For the last couple of years, a lot of very outspoken people around it and the changes that are needed, which is great to see. And you know, it's no surprise really that the regulation has to catch up and get to the level that it needs to be. But, we are seeing that and there's a real drive for it and a real appetite I think as well. And especially younger people, I think a bit more are starting to ask those sort of questions of like, what is your indoor air quality policy in work? What have you done to implement things since COVID that to make sure I'm safe when I get in there and I'm not going to be sick all the time. People don't want, obviously, long-term health issues, so they, they need an answer from an employer. And it's a very awkward question if you're in an interview and you ask the employer and they get a bit nervous. Employers really need to step up, and take it seriously. There's huge amounts of benefits just in the productivity of the people that are in those spaces now. And they're clear of mind, like we spoke about. They're making better decisions, be more productive, less days off sick. And the cost of that, the savings it can make it from that alone is way more than the cost of implementing these things.

Raymond Yin
And with so many people working from home, a lot of that’s got to trickle down into the home. And I’m not sure if you guys have seen more people using your services or using similar services for their actual homes where they now work eight hours a day and then obviously live the rest of the time.

Ronan Cooney
To be honest, we haven't seen it to a huge amount, but we're working with some big corporations, some of the big US tech companies at the moment on some projects directly relating to that. So, it's going to be getting a bit blurry now of what is your company responsible for? Are they responsible for the air quality of your house because they're expecting you to work remotely now?

Raymond Yin
Ah, Okay. Interesting.

Ronan Cooney
Where does that lie now, okay, the office that's theirs, definitely they have to take responsibility for it. But if you go, okay, I'm in a little cramped room and there's no ventilation, there's no windows, you know, who takes responsibility for that? My house not big enough to have a different office or some nice leather seat and a nice big desk and everything that we all wish we had at home. The realities can be very different at a kitchen table with other people in the family potentially working in the same environment and so where does that line finish for a company is becoming very blurred. And I think those big corporations are seeing that and they're trying to get ahead of it, and they're trying to put different things in place to help with that and make sure that they are responsible, at least, again, at least they know what's happening there, and then decide whether they can do something about it.

Raymond Yin
And, as engineers, it all starts with the data, knowing what the environment is like and having that data collected and analyzed.

Ronan Cooney
Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. What, without the data, you're making blind decisions. And again, we've seen companies go, oh, we thought we had an air quality issue, so we went and we put in this a hundred thousand dollar or euro ventilation system, and then you go in and it's not actually that bad. They go uh-oh, who made that decision?

Raymond Yin
Right.

Ronan Cooney
They're low cost these days, the devices, so just put them in there and get the data, have a look and then come up with a plan and a policy. I think that's always step one. For a lot of these things, it's like sustainability these days, and you need a policy and a policy will drive it through the company. And the CEO right down needs to be very clear on their priority and the priority that they're putting on air quality and the environments that they want their staff to work with. When the indoor air quality is very good, you're showing your employees, that they're important to you.

Raymond Yin
Right, that you care.

Ronan Cooney
Yeah, exactly. And your customers, if you're in a shop or a store or whatever and customers are coming in and out, they're potentially affected by, if it was very bad indoor air quality. So it's worth them promoting it, when it is good. We used to put different stickers and stuff like that open in different people's windows, in their business to show it's being monitored all the time. And, you know, that they care. And universities, was a big one for us. So we've had a couple of universities where we've devices deployed, and again, you're looking at people in very cramped sort of areas trying to learn and trying to be clear of thought that they can get the most out of the courses that they're doing. So that ventilation should be really, really, really high in the priority lists of those spaces. But in most cases, sadly, it's not.

Raymond Yin
Right. You know, that's an area that, I'm not sure if it's thought of a lot. When you're think of where you work and where you live, your homes and your offices, but the kids are in school, six to 10 hours a day depending on the day. And, you're right. It's got to be as pristine as possible to create that better learning environment. But also, long term, these kids are in school - in some of these school buildings - for five, six years at a time.

Ronan Cooney
Yeah. And I don’t what it's like in the US but I know in Ireland, a lot of the school buildings are, can be very old, very old stone buildings. So ventilation wasn't really ever a consideration there. And, again with COVID, it was a huge driver. You know, all the schools were closed, the amount of education that people lost out on and the experience, I feel very sad for a lot of the university people in Ireland in particular, that nearly all their courses were online. They got maybe three or four years of a university course. They never got to meet their classmates. Everything was online, and they lost a huge life experience. You'd hope that these days it's become a more of a priority for those universities. And, like we're saying, we've seen the universities here taking on board and really driving that on and being serious about it. So it's great to see. But it's the cost, the economic impact of … if you go to the government to go, okay, we're going to need X million a year to roll this out across all schools, a lot of time the funding's not there.

Raymond Yin
Yeah, like we were just saying, hopefully as these regulations and recommendations are taken more seriously, that does become a bigger priority for school funding, for companies to make an investment in their buildings and their infrastructure.

Ronan Cooney
That's it. Yeah. Like, I've said, the benefits can be huge for the people in those spaces. And, we need to put the people first, and really value the work that they're doing and the output that they can have, and try to put them in the best environments that they can. For universities, it's the same in every country, but you want to be showing people that we're of this standard, we're this class, we're providing the best environment for students.

Raymond Yin
Let’s pivot to a set of rapid-fire questions which come from our sponsored partner, TE Connectivity. Connecting engineers with innovative products to create a safer, sustainable, and productive future, TE Connectivity’s broad portfolio serves applications across industrial, energy, automotive, and more. Explore more from them by visiting mouser.com/te-connectivity.

Raymond Yin
Star Trek or Star Wars?

Ronan Cooney
Star Wars, I'm afraid.

Raymond Yin
Really? I have been a trekker for a gazillion years, but some of the new Star Wars shows are just absolutely amazing.

Ronan Cooney
Yeah, I was always the next generation fan growing up. But yes, I think that was probably the key moment for me around Star Trek. I got a bit lost either side of Next Generation, but Star Wars been fairly consistent.

Raymond Yin
Of the products you've developed, which one are you the most proud of?

Ronan Cooney
I think it's the very first AmbiAir product that we came up with. There was a shift within the company at the time, so we'd done a lot of outdoor air quality and outdoor air monitoring. And again, it just came from concept, you know, of what we wanted to do as a company and make this shift. So, we didn't start from, from a blank piece of paper and drove that on and, and just, yeah, changing it. And, and the team that we had really stepped up, you know, through as well. So really proud of the work that, that they've done and the efforts that they've been over time. But yeah, I think the AmbiAir sort of core first product that we put together was, yeah, really proud of it as, as a product.

Raymond Yin
Terrific. What ingredients are your favorite burger on the “ultimate burger for Ronan”?

Ronan Cooney
Um, well, you’ve got to have cheese, obviously.

Raymond Yin
Of course! What type though?

Ronan Cooney
Yeah, that's, well, Ireland, we're re reared on cheddar cheese, so a good cheddar there. I think. Uh, plenty of that. But I'm simple, you know, I love my food, but when it comes to a burger, I don't like messing around. I don't like eggs or any of this thing on it that some places go with crazy on.

Raymond Yin
So, no kimchi or anything like that?

Ronan Cooney
No. And the good quality, you know, thick, thick burger itself, you know, nice juicy, burger, cheese, and
then, you know, a nice mayo. I think that’s it. I’m done. I’m happy.

Raymond Yin
Yep. For me, add some bacon on it. I am real simple as well. Cheese, bacon, mayo, A little bit of mustard.

Ronan Cooney
Yeah. Happy days.

Raymond Yin
Yeah, absolutely. So, for Ambisense, I know Ambisense works all over Europe and whatnot. What's been your favorite deployment location?

Ronan Cooney
Oh, it's a tough one. I think for me, with the indoor air quality stuff, it's just in some of the universities. To see universities really step up and link the productivity of the students and where they are and take control of that situation. Again, there was no mandates around it. Didn't have to do it. And, you know, universities and any other schools, you know, budgets are always sort of tight, but they carved out some money to do that in Dublin. One of the universities were working with put them everywhere through the whole school, staff rooms, everywhere. And it was just great to see and the enthusiasm they had for that project and to take that on and want the data, whereas at the time, a lot of people were scared, you know, and to go, “oh, what if the data shows us, we've got serious problems through the whole school and it's going to cost millions to fix it.” But they wanted to know the information because they wanted to and share that. One of the schools where we put stickers up through a lot of different rooms, where students felt a bit more comfortable. And, you know, there was that anxiety of people going back into a busy classroom after COVID. Can I sit beside somebody or not? And what's happening with the air and things like that. And, just to put that bit of ease from the university to show their students that they cared about them at that level, for me, it was just really interesting. I just commended them. It was very good to see.

Raymond Yin
Describe hurling. Because I've read about it, I cannot picture it.

Ronan Cooney
Well, they, they call it I think, one of the fastest games in the world, but it's, um, basically you have a hurl, which is like a stick. It's a bit sort of fatter on the end. That's made out of Ash. And then you have, it's called a silotar, which is a hard ball. And basically, you have to hit the ball over a goal post. So you have a goals, bit like an American football sort of goals. So, there's a net say at the bottom, and then two very tall vertical poles. If it goes between the poles, over the bar, it's one point. If it goes in the net, you get three points. So, it's very classic, very historical Irish game, probably hundreds of years old and things like that against an amateur sport. Gaelic football in Ireland and hurling are both amateur, but the skill levels and the training is really, really high. It's an amazing game to watch. I'd recommend anybody go onto YouTube, put in hurling, and watch a bit of a match. The skill levels are phenomenal. So, it's a great sport to watch.

Raymond Yin
Sounds great. Definitely on my list now. What would you be doing if you weren't an engineer?

Ronan Cooney
Oh, that's another good question. I'm always tinkering. It's always been something since I was very small of how do things work, you know, it's always been a thing for me. The last few years, I got into a lot of upcycling, so furniture and reusing things as well. The whole sustainability thing has become really interesting for me. And, just keeping things alive more. I love going to shows, seeing old bits of furniture, things that look on the edge of maybe going for the rubbish tip and taking them home, showing them a bit of love, you know, paint them up or, or doing whatever. My house has, I'd say 50% maybe the furniture we have has been claimed from somewhere else and done up. I'd probably be … if it didn't have to work, it doesn't pay very well.

Raymond Yin
I hate that, huh.

Ronan Cooney
If it didn't have to worry about finances, I'd probably be tipping away in a workshop somewhere.

Raymond Yin
What is your favorite kitchen gadget?

Ronan Cooney
Kitchen gadget? Oh, maybe it shows my lack of skills sometimes, I like these little lily ponds for poaching eggs. It floats on top of the water basically, and you can crack your egg into it and then you can poach it like that, than actually having to submerge it into the water. So, it gives you a nice shape, then consistency of the shape of it, and you're less likely for it to split or break or things like that. So it's a nice thing if I'm doing eggs benedict or something like that. That's a nice little gadget I have.

Raymond Yin
Seriously, I've never heard about a gadget like that.

Ronan, I want to thank you so much for your insight. Really appreciate your time and, and, and talking to us a little bit just about the air in our offices, in our buildings. Really do appreciate it.

Ronan Cooney
Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Raymond. It's been great to talk and it's a subject I'm really passionate about and it's really important. So hopefully people out there will focus on it and do one thing at least to try and improve the air quality in the spaces that they work and live in.

Raymond Yin
Thanks for joining us for part 1 of our conversation with Ronan Cooney. Be sure to catch our next episode as we dive deeper into Environmental Sensors. If you’d like to learn more about this technology, The Tech Between Us podcast is just one piece of Mouser’s in-depth look at this subject. Explore the entire Empowering Innovation Together content series at mouser.com/empowering-innovation for technical articles, use cases, and more.

Sponsor Commercial: TE Connectivity
Ensuring that every connection counts, TE Connectivity delivers engineers a broad product portfolio of connectivity and sensor solutions ranging from applications in industrial, energy, automotive, and more. To learn how they are creating a safer, sustainable, and connected future, visit mouser.com/te-connectivity.